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Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Printable Version

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Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Wu Han - 10-12-2025

In Particracy Classic, there had long been a debate regarding a possible retcon for Daenism (in-game Buddhism) and the Bidar (in-game Buddha). Jamescfm created a thread on this topic back in 2021, based on discussions we had on this topic, an excerpt from which I will include here:

Quote:[...] in comparison to Hosianism, there has been relatively little development of the background and history of Daenism. [...] The history that has been established holds that the Bidar was born in Aldegar in the first century CE and that Daenism emerged from Yazdism (in-game equivalent of Zoroastrianism). Although this proposed history has been around for some time there has been relatively little role-play associated with it. For example, if you search the word "Bidar" on the forum there are nineteen results, over half of which are Wu Han himself.

Daenism having emerged from Yazdism is complicating for a number of reasons because Buddhism in real life is deeply connected to the various other Indian religions like Hinduism and Jainism that emerged from the same traditions with many shared concepts (dharma and karma, for example). Zoroastrianism does probably have some similarities with those religions but actually it is much closer to the Abrahamic religions in terms of monotheism, a "founding prophet" and so on (at least in my opinion).

[...] While it is understandable that we would want to differentiate between real-life religions and their in-game equivalents, this seems to be a little unnecessarily convoluted. Rather than have the Bidar being born in Aldegar, we would propose having him born in either Vascania or somewhere in southwest Dovani (Hanzen or Kimlien, for example) amid the context of the historic Vedic traditions.

I am reviving this proposal for two primary reasons: first, I am playing in South Dovani/Hanzen, the most Daenist country in Particracy (92% according to the Cultural Protocol); the history and development of Daenism has a major impact on the history and development of Hanzai (Thai) culture, and the broader region in which Hanzen is located. Moreover, Daenism is a majority religion in multiple Dovanian nations, as well as Vascania, while there are very few Daenists in Aldegar and the broader Seleyan continent today (see the image below for a distribution of Daenists, drawing on the CPs of every country).

[Image: Daenism-dist.png]
Global distribution of Daenists as a proportion of national population, according to each Cultural Protocol.

I admit that this is a relatively weak argument when you consider that only a small number of Palestinians (living in Palestine) are Christian today, relative to the number of Muslims; that is to say, a religion's historical geographic origin need not necessarily have a major bearing on where that religion has a contemporary following. However, I think it is relevant when considering history – how did these places become so Daenist? Why is there very little Daenist influence, culturally or otherwise, on the Seleyan continent relative to Dovani and Vascania?

Secondly, I think the timing for this retcon coincides well with Polites' very strong proposal for updating the cultural protocol of Malivia, which I support. This proposal has a serious implication for another in-game Indian religion, Geraja (in-game equivalent of Hinduism). As Polites wrote:

Quote:As for religion, I think we should get rid of Geraja from Malivia altogether. The wiki article for Geraja is very outdated, with the last substantial update dating from 2006, and though it has been used in RP, I think that can be easily retconned.

With the revisions to Malivia's culture resulting in the displacement of Geraja, the timing seems right to simplify the origin, as well as the theology, of Daenism by locating both Indian religions in the game's (soon-to-be) sole India-inspired country, Vascania. With such a retcon, a fairly clear possible explanation for how Dovani became so Daenist comes into view: the most Daenist countries in Dovani today fell into a Vascanian sphere of cultural influence, similar to the real-world "Indosphere," at some point in "pre-game" history (See the image below for a hypothetical "Vascosphere"). Other Daenist countries could have become that way through the transmission of Daenism via a similar cultural Ying-sphere (Sino-sphere), which would include Seko, Dankuk, Hulstria and Gao-Soto, and so on.

[Image: vasc-sphere.png]
Historic Vascosphere cultural influence zone. Dark Orange: Vascania; Light Orange: countries culturally linked to Vascania, such as Yerrawa, Hanzen, Inner Kimlien, Temania, etc.; Yellow: Regions not part of the Vascanian cultural sphere but with current or historical Vascanian cultural influence.

To summarize, I propose the following:
Quote:
  1. Geraja and Daenism will be considered to have originated in Vascania.
  2. Geraja and Daenism will have been transmitted to Dovani from Vascania at some point in the "pre-game" history.

Finally, it should be noted here that Polites was the one who conceptualized Daenism as having emerged in a Yazdi (Zoroastrian) and Manichean context. I think this, as with much of Polites work on in-game culture and religion, is very thoughtful, interesting, and creative. This said, it is my understanding based on our communications, that Polites is not attached to this narrative, and that Daenism is still tied to Aldegar primarily as a consequence of the fact that it has been that way for a long time. An obstacle he has previously outlined, however, is that the names of Daenism, of the Bidar, and of theological concepts in the Daenist religion, are drawn from Avestan and/or Old Persian.

I think this can be resolved in one of two ways:

Option A: a re-contextualization of these words in Sanskrit. For instance, "Daenism" could originate from the Sanskrit dhāna (धेन / धान) meaning “meditation, mental cultivation,” or daena (दैन्य) meaning “insight into suffering.” Meanwhile, "Bidar" could be re-contextualized as simply being the name of the founder (similar to Siddhartha Gautama), or some other meaning in Sanskrit (this is a bit more tricky, I've found...).

Option B: we could develop new names for the religion, for its founder, and for its theological/philosophical concepts. I will note there is already a precedent for referring to "dharma," a real-world term for a concept in Indian religions, in the form of Sundarat Dharma, and thus, many of these concepts – rooted in Indo-Aryan terminology – can likely be drawn upon.

I am ambivalent as to the approach towards renaming Daenism and its components.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Polites - 10-12-2025

I very much agree with this. The reason why Daenism is from Aldegar is indeed because that's the way it's been for a long time, but I think that moving to a new forum and a new wiki gives us an opportunity to clean up less than ideal things we've been stuck with. When I first proposed changing "Buddhism" into "Daenism" during the religion retcon back in 2012 there was very little information on the context of its emergence, with the only reference being a short mention on the Illustrated Catalogue of Religion that Buddhism was born in Eastern Seleya from the interaction of various scholars known as Buddhas. Based on that I tried to square the circle and came up with this fictional religion that emerged with the background of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism. Making it originate in Vascania was not really an option anyone considered back then, as it did not have its Indian culture firmly established, and at the same time Geraja (the equivalent of Hinduism) was already established in Malivia (though confusingly Malivia was not Indian back then).
 
Now we’re no longer stuck with these, and I also think that changing the terminology should not be all that difficult. Overall I do favour Option A for terminology that is very entrenched, like the name of the religion itself and its founder, while we can use option B for everything else. I originally came up with the term “Daenism” when I found out that Sanskrit dhyāna had a cognate in Avestan (daena), which gave me the idea of a sort of Avestan Buddhism. We could maybe rename the religion as Dhyanism, or keep Daenism and claim it as a “corruption” of the original Sanskrit, or take Wu’s suggestion to have it originate from दैन्य. As for “Bidar”, turns out there is a town called Bidar in Karnataka, with a Kannada etymology (apparently from the Kannada word for bamboo), so it would not be a stretch to have Bidar be a proper name for the founder with a Tannata origin for his name. For everything else I think we are free to use whichever Sanskrit terms fit best.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Polites - 10-12-2025

One additional point, it may not even be necessary to change much of the terminology if we consider that the first contacts of the western world (Artania and Majatra) with Daenism was via Aldegar. Maybe Daena and Bīdār was how people in Aldegar called things that had a different name in the original languages of Daenism.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Wu Han - 18-12-2025

(10-12-2025, 11:01 AM)Polites Wrote: [...] Overall I do favour Option A for terminology that is very entrenched, like the name of the religion itself and its founder, while we can use option B for everything else. [...] We could maybe rename the religion as Dhyanism, or keep Daenism and claim it as a “corruption” of the original Sanskrit, or take Wu’s suggestion to have it originate from दैन्य. [...]

I agree that it's preferable to maintain the old terms rather than create new ones, given their longstanding existence in the game. I think the religion could be something like "Daena-dharma" (meaning something like "Doctrine of insight into suffering") in the original Sanskrit, with "Daenism" being the English/Luthorian version, taken from the "Daena" root. This is similar to Buddha-dharma → Buddhism. Alternatively...

(10-12-2025, 06:35 PM)Polites Wrote: One additional point, it may not even be necessary to change much of the terminology if we consider that the first contacts of the western world (Artania and Majatra) with Daenism was via Aldegar. Maybe Daena and Bīdār was how people in Aldegar called things that had a different name in the original languages of Daenism.

I think this could work, though I also think it is somewhat unnecessarily complicated, given my first point here. However, this point makes me think that it might be interesting to have a Daenist off-shoot in Aldegar that continues your original fusion with Zoroastrian/Manichean philosophy?

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Wu Han - 04-02-2026

Just to keep this proposal alive, as well as summarize what I think has been discussed and agreed to (at least, between Polites and I):
  • Daenism should be retconned to have originated in Vascania (ideally alongside Geraja, though this depends in part on the retcon proposal for Malivia), from which it spread first to Southern Dovani and Yingdala, and eventually up to Seko, Baeguk, and Gao-Soto (perhaps through Iltamzumra's recently conceptualized "Gaoic Empire"?);
  • The name "Daenism" should accordingly be understood to have originated from "Daena-dharma" in Sanskrit, meaning "Doctrine of insight into suffering;"
  • The name of the founder of the religion, Bidar, is a given name similar to Siddhartha Gautama, whereas the title for one who achieves "buddhahood" is yet to be determined, but will be derived from Sanskrit (as with the other terms used in the religion).

To my mind, the final note is the only (small) issue to be resolved. If "Bidar" is a given name, it would be improper to refer to him as "the Bidar" in the same way as one refers to "the Buddha." Here are some proposals for such a title from the Sanskrit dictionary:
  1. Sasta (शास्ता) – the teacher; instructor; guide
  2. Bodhaka (बोधक) – the awakener; one who causes awakening in others
  3. Bodhita (बोधित) – one who has been awakened

I personally feel the last is the best as it most closely mirrors the meaning of "Buddha" (i.e. "the awakened one"), though still with its own unique meaning (being "the awakened one" rather than being the "one who has been awakened" are somewhat distinct philosophically, with the latter subtly reinforcing pratītyasamutpāda through its passivity). However, the other two are still valid in my opinion, and emerge from a very Buddhist instinct to foreground teaching. As always, I remain open to any other proposals.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Wu Han - 06-02-2026

Something I forgot about are the major schools of Daenism, which may need a slight renaming – though luckily these schools are pretty undeveloped at this point, and so as with the retcon overall, this shouldn't be very disruptive.

Currently:
  • Mahayana (Wikipedia: "Great Vehicle") is Mazdayana (Old Wiki: "The Aldegarian name of the school means "Vehicle of Wisdom")
  • Theravada (Wikipedia: "School of the Elders") is Upayana (Old Wiki provides no info/etymology)
  • Zen (Wikipedia: [similar to current in-game explanation]) is Zenshō (Old Wiki: "Daênâ was initially translated as 禪那 (Chánnà, Zenna, Seongna), later simplified as 禪 (Chán/Zen/Seong)")
  • Vajrayana (Wikipedia: "Diamond Vehicle or Thunderbolt Vehicle") has no equivalent.
As always, I am open to any name proposal, but this is my proposal for Pali/Sanskrit names for these schools if Daenism is to be moved to Vascania (and thus cannot be Aldegarian/Avestan):
  • Mahayana (Mazdayana) = Maitrayana ("Benevolent Vehicle")
  • Theravada (Upayana) = Thanavada ("Foundational School")
  • Zenshō can remain the same.
  • Vajrayana (unnamed) = Vasiyana ("Vehicle of Mastery/Power")
Other in-game forms of Daenism, or Daenism-adjacent religions, do not need to be renamed (i.e. Sundarat Dharma, Xsampan Daenism, Tenshism, Seongyo, Sindo-Daenism, etc.). Regional forms of Daenism generally should just be referred to as such: Yingdalan Daenism, Kimlienese Daenism, Hanzai Daenism, Kyo Daenism, etc.

Should also just note that, with permission and should this retcon be approved, I'm happy to work on this religion generally, as I seem to be the most interested in it... Happy to make wiki articles and so on, just give me the green light lol.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Zanz - 06-02-2026

Moderation has discussed and given the strong arguments put forward in this thread and the lack of any voiced concern, we approve of the effort you're proposing. Please proceed with updates so that Daenism and Geraja will both have originated in Vascania and spread from there.

If any updates should require significant rework of any individual country's lore, please do your best to work with players there (or players with long histories there) to come to an agreeable conclusion.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Wu Han - 06-02-2026

(06-02-2026, 02:02 PM)Zanz Wrote: Moderation has discussed and given the strong arguments put forward in this thread and the lack of any voiced concern, we approve of the effort you're proposing. Please proceed with updates so that Daenism and Geraja will both have originated in Vascania and spread from there.

If any updates should require significant rework of any individual country's lore, please do your best to work with players there (or players with long histories there) to come to an agreeable conclusion.

My thanks to Moderation. I'll continue to use this thread moving forward to track any significant changes I make, as well as requesting any necessary changes. Of course, as you request, I'll be sure to consult with players when relevant.

RE: Retconning Daenism, the Bidar, and Geraja - Wu Han - 08-02-2026

UPDATES:

Wind me up and watch me go...
  • I have created this page and this page on the "religion" topic of the forum (the latter is more a work-in-progress).
  • I have created/updated the following wiki pages: Daenism, Maitrayana, Thanavada, Vasiyana, Vascanian religions, Vascosphere, Geraja, Zenshõ, the Bodhita, Xsampan Daenism, Schools of Daenism, and Daenism by country, Geraja by country and Major religious groups
  • I have updated every reference to the prior names for Thanavada, Maitrayana, and the Bodhita on the wiki (i.e. on country pages, history pages, etc.) as well as in my own forum posts.
  • On Xsampan Daenism, I worked with Elena/Weimarska to produce a background and history that fits their work and RP regarding Xsampan Daenism, Xsampan history, etc., thus far, developing the four main schools of Xsampan Daenism – Gadram (RL: Gelug), Sarmöl (RL: Nyingma), Pelnyak (RL: Sakya), Kadrü (RL: Kagyu) and Rimkhor (RL: Rimé) reform movement – and their role in modern Xsampan society.
  • Geraja remains a bit more of a work-in-progress as it's slightly lower priority to my RP personally. Nevertheless, we trudge on.

REQUEST TO MODERATION:

1. When possible, please change the following terms in CPs where they appear:
  • Mazdayana -> Maitrayana
  • Upayana -> Thanavada

This implicates a reasonable number of CPs, but it is simply an update to reflect the new terms we are using – no change in actual numbers or anything meaningful is being requested.

2. Some small suggestions for possible CP updates (not super important, but sensible in my opinion):
  • Reducing the number of Daenists in Aldegar, as given the retcon it's unlikely they'd have as many as they do (from 10% to 2-5% is my recommendation).
  • Reducing the number of Daenists in Liore, as 12% seems rather high for an African-inspired country with only 2% Kunihito and 4% other (from 12% to 1-4% is my recommendation)
  • Reducing the number of Daenists in Istapali, for similar reasons as Liore (from 3% to 0-1% is my recommendation)
  • Changing Dalibor's Daenist adherents to be more Mahayana (Maitrayana) than Theravada (Thanavada); I recommend roughly 6-8% Thanavada (to account for the religious beliefs of the Hanzai (Thai) population) and the remainder being Maitrayana (as this is the dominant form in Yingdala and among other Gao-Showan countries/cultures)
  • A slight increase to the number of Gerajis in Vascania (my recommendation is from 9% to 12-15%, at the expense of Hosianism and/or Sundarat Dharma, but preferably the former given the over-representation of Hosians in PT (see my wiki page for "Major religious groups")

Thanks in advance to the Moderator(s) for your time and consideration.