Cultural Protocol update for Endralon

[Polites]

I would like to ask for feedback for this update to the Cultural Protocol of Endralon. I primarily want to bring it in line with the CP of Kundrati following the “culture swap” between Kundrati and Deltaria, so the Zergonese are no longer Croats, they are now Slovaks – like in Kundrati. I’m also proposing an increase in their percentage, to make them have more demographic weight. Another big change is the renaming of Hungarians from Syldavians to simply Endralonians. The reasoning for this is that Syldavian is a RL term and technically against the rules, it refers to a country and language created by Hergé and used in the Tintin comics. I’m also suggesting some more minor changes, like simplifying the CP, removing the Hungarian subgroups, and adjusting the numbers of ethnic and religious minorities slightly.

For reference, the current CP is here.

--OVERVIEW—
Endralon is based on Hungary and Slovakia.

--ETHNICITY—

• Endralonian (Hungarian): 56%
• Delic (Slavic): 34%
⠀⠀-- Zergonese (Slovak): 26%
⠀⠀-- Skitian (Czech): 5%
⠀⠀-- Valruzian (Polish): 2%
• Lurrian (Basque): 3%
• Manoush (Roma): 2%
• Dundorfian (German): 1%
• Kizenian (Romanian): 1%
• Others - 3%

--RELIGION—

• No religion: 51%
• Hosianism (Christianity): 46%
⠀⠀-- Ameliorate (Reformed): 21%
⠀⠀-- Aurorian Patriarchal Church (Catholic): 19%
⠀⠀-- Zagorite (Hussite): 5%
⠀⠀-- Augustan Church (Orthodox): 1%
• Others: 3%

--LANGUAGE—
Endralonian (Hungarian) is the most widely used language, while Zergonese (Slovak) is spoken primarily by the Zergonese.

--TOOLS--

Google translate: https://translate.google.co.uk/
Naming generators: http://www.behindthename.com/random/
http://fantasynamegenerators.com/#realNames

[Autokrator]

I do not mind the change of the Zergon people from Croats to Slovaks. That seems fine. 

I do however heavily object to the change of the name of the language and the people of Endralon from Syldavian to Endralonian. Endralon was initially based on the works of TinTins slavic-dutch-balkan nation of the same name. 

Secondly this retcon, like any retcon in Endralon CANNOT be made in my opinion without approval of the active player in NEK or without considering NEK, and vice versa. When Endralon became Hungarian NEK wasnt taken into consideration either a fatal flaw in my opinion. But that move didnt hurt as much and is quite sensible now, however this move GREATELY disrupts NEK. I should know,  i considering myself a New Endralon expert . 

Let me give some examples of why we should keep Syldavian:
1. The NEK dialect is called Zyldavian, its dirived from the Syldav language of Endralon as New Endralonians/Zyldavs are decendents of Endralonians/Syldavs. This has been game lore for ages. The name Zyldavia/Zyldavian/Zyldav makes little sense if Endralon changes the language name. 
2. One of the two Zyldav/New Endralonian provinces in NEK is called Zyldavia. It cannot be renamed Endralon as the other province is Endrafold. 
3. We have been using these terms for ages. Why the sudden change? 
4. As i said Endralon is based primarily on Syldavia from TinTin, its flag came from it (the black pelican on yellow that both Endraloj and New Endralon use) the motto of Endralon and New Endralon is based on it: "Here I Am, Here I stay!" And as I said its part of the naming scheme of pretty much all of the colonial stuff in NEK. Taking this away is further seperating Endralon from what it used to be. 
5. No plan was presented to resolve the canon issues that arise in New Endralon as a result of this, which is unreasonable and in my eyes enough ground to reject it entirely.

I'd rather Endralon adopt Zyldavian as the language name than change it and make it so that New Endralon has to retcon ALOT more as a result of it. So please reject it.

[Polites]

I do not mind the change of the Zergon people from Croats to Slovaks. That seems fine. 

I do however heavily object to the change of the name of the language and the people of Endralon from Syldavian to Endralonian. Endralon was initially based on the works of TinTins slavic-dutch-balkan nation of the same name. 

Secondly this retcon, like any retcon in Endralon CANNOT be made in my opinion without approval of the active player in NEK or without considering NEK, and vice versa. When Endralon became Hungarian NEK wasnt taken into consideration either a fatal flaw in my opinion. But that move didnt hurt as much and is quite sensible now, however this move GREATELY disrupts NEK. I should know,  i considering myself a New Endralon expert . 

Let me give some examples of why we should keep Syldavian:
1. The NEK dialect is called Zyldavian, its dirived from the Syldav language of Endralon as New Endralonians/Zyldavs are decendents of Endralonians/Syldavs. This has been game lore for ages. The name Zyldavia/Zyldavian/Zyldav makes little sense if Endralon changes the language name. 
2. One of the two Zyldav/New Endralonian provinces in NEK is called Zyldavia. It cannot be renamed Endralon as the other province is Endrafold. 
3. We have been using these terms for ages. Why the sudden change? 
4. As i said Endralon is based primarily on Syldavia from TinTin, its flag came from it (the black pelican on yellow that both Endraloj and New Endralon use) the motto of Endralon and New Endralon is based on it: "Here I Am, Here I stay!" And as I said its part of the naming scheme of pretty much all of the colonial stuff in NEK. Taking this away is further seperating Endralon from what it used to be. 
5. No plan was presented to resolve the canon issues that arise in New Endralon as a result of this, which is unreasonable and in my eyes enough ground to reject it entirely.

I'd rather Endralon adopt Zyldavian as the language name than change it and make it so that New Endralon has to retcon ALOT more as a result of it. So please reject it.

I did consult the CP of NEK before proposing this, and I see the Hungarians there have two names, Zyldavs and New Endralonians. They are not called Syldavians (which is a RL term and should not have been allowed), so I don’t really see the conflict? As for the ultimate origin of the name Zyldavs (and the House of Syldavia for that matter) I’ve been gradually introducing Sildova as an alternative informal name for Endralon, with Syldavia serving as its cultivated Latinized version. So in my eyes my proposed change has no bearing on points 1, 2, and 5. Hungarians in New Endalon are primarily known as New Endralonians, which matches my proposed renaming of Hungarians in Endralon to Endralonians, and there exists an in-game origin and justification for the presence of the Zyldav and Zyldavia names in NEK. So there is absolutely no reason for NEK to retcon anything.
 
As for points 3 and 4, the rules are very clear in banning the use of real-life fictional references, so Syldavian as the name for Hungarians is against the rules, especially considering that Endralon was so obviously based on Hergé’s Tintin comics. This would be the same as introducing Numenorians  in a nation heavily inspired by LOTR – I doubt if this were attempted today that Moderation would approve such a proposal. I’m not a Moderator myself so I can’t speak to why this has never been enforced, but I think updating a Cultural Protocol to make it more in line with the rules is a good thing.
 
If this becomes a reason to reject my proposed CP update for Endalon I am willing to propose Sildovan as an alternative name for the Endralonians, but I’d rather avoid that. I prefer to keep Sildova as an alternative name for the nation as a whole, considering that in the current RP Endralon is one of the two components of a federation, so I need a short name to refer to both Endralon and Zergon without tying that name to either main ethnicity.

[Autokrator]

I did consult the CP of NEK before proposing this, and I see the Hungarians there have two names, Zyldavs and New Endralonians. They are not called Syldavians (which is a RL term and should not have been allowed), so I don’t really see the conflict? 

I believe they originally were also called Syldavians, as was their language. It was changed by someone to Endralese for no-reason. Something I, for the record also objected to. 

As for the ultimate origin of the name Zyldavs (and the House of Syldavia for that matter) I’ve been gradually introducing Sildova as an alternative informal name for Endralon, with Syldavia serving as its cultivated Latinized version. So in my eyes my proposed change has no bearing on points 1, 2, and 5. Hungarians in New Endalon are primarily known as New Endralonians, which matches my proposed renaming of Hungarians in Endralon to Endralonians, and there exists an in-game origin and justification for the presence of the Zyldav and Zyldavia names in NEK. So there is absolutely no reason for NEK to retcon anything.

I'll concede that there is little conflict there on the ethnic name of the people, and on further reflection I agree that the New Endralonians should also be called just New Endralonians, the Endralonians being called Endralonians is fine as well. 

The problem is the language. If you rename the language Endralonian, then why is the dialect called Zyldavian in NEK? Its original orign of that name is Syldavian -> Zyldavian. If you want to call the language Endralonian, then in NEK it also needs to be called Endralonian. There is no reason why it would be called Zyldavian. Thats my main objection. I also find your use for Syldavia/Sildovia in connection with the House of Sildovai/Syldavia to not give enough explanation for how the name Zyldavia then came about. Just tying it solely to the former royal house is in my eyes, not enough.
 

As for points 3 and 4, the rules are very clear in banning the use of real-life fictional references, so Syldavian as the name for Hungarians is against the rules, especially considering that Endralon was so obviously based on Hergé’s Tintin comics. This would be the same as introducing Numenorians  in a nation heavily inspired by LOTR – I doubt if this were attempted today that Moderation would approve such a proposal. I’m not a Moderator myself so I can’t speak to why this has never been enforced, but I think updating a Cultural Protocol to make it more in line with the rules is a good thing.

It is understandable, the Sildovan solution seems like a good idea. 
 

If this becomes a reason to reject my proposed CP update for Endalon I am willing to propose Sildovan as an alternative name for the Endralonians, but I’d rather avoid that. I prefer to keep Sildova as an alternative name for the nation as a whole, considering that in the current RP Endralon is one of the two components of a federation, so I need a short name to refer to both Endralon and Zergon without tying that name to either main ethnicity.

I'd prefer that or for Sildova to be one of two components of a federation so that you can keep naming the nation Endralon.

[Polites]

I see Moderation has now approved the CP update, but just to answer some of the issues raised here, the way I see it Syldavia would be to Endralon kinda like what Britannia is to the UK in real life. So any uses of Syldavia and derived terms in New Endralon or elsewhere would be references to this poetic and even archaic way of calling Endralon itself. The royal house would not have been the origin of the name, they just adopted it for itself. So some colonists calling their variation of the Endralonian language Syldavian (and the derived term Zyldavian) is not that far fetched, they were just keeping alive an alternative mythologized name of their original homeland.

[Doc]

The problem is the language. If you rename the language Endralonian, then why is the dialect called Zyldavian in NEK? Its original orign of that name is Syldavian -> Zyldavian. If you want to call the language Endralonian, then in NEK it also needs to be called Endralonian. There is no reason why it would be called Zyldavian.
 

Just to add my two cents here, why not?

In Kalistan we have RPed for more than 3000 years that Luthorian is called Vrassan, that it is its own language with high mutual intelligibility with Luthori Luthorian, and that it is the luthorian language as spoken in Northern Seleya. It's even listed in the Wiki officially as Northern Seleyan Luthorian.

To claim this makes more than just an annoying point. It points out that culturally speaking, we are not equivalent. We have our own idiom, our own mind. Kalistan was not settled by Luthorians: We adopted the language as a trade language.

So why would it be so hard for the Endralonian spoken in New Endralon, where the people there have lived quite apart from their cultural identity of origin for thousands of IG years now, to call their language just Zyldavian? Don't you think that is reasonable? After all, the local dialect of Latin spoken in the Iberian Penninsula became Spanish in about half that time? The German spoken in England became English in like an eighth of that time. Isn't it reasonable that Kerisians in NEK would actually speak a closely related, but locally admixtured dialect of Endralonian?

Or is it your point that New Endralonian culture is and must be identical to their culture of origin, and has remained the same for thousands of years? Because that would ignore history. Not every nation is or should be Mordusia.

[Autokrator]

So why would it be so hard for the Endralonian spoken in New Endralon, where the people there have lived quite apart from their cultural identity of origin for thousands of IG years now, to call their language just Zyldavian? Don't you think that is reasonable? After all, the local dialect of Latin spoken in the Iberian Penninsula became Spanish in about half that time? The German spoken in England became English in like an eighth of that time. Isn't it reasonable that Kerisians in NEK would actually speak a closely related, but locally admixtured dialect of Endralonian?

I think you are not getting my point, Doc. First of all English did not come from German, they both came forth from a common west-germanic language, but that is beside the point. 

First to state that in a modern setting where through internet and modern communication language drift is probably a bit different, I'm not saying that New Endralon, who are a very culturally conservative people, havent diviated. They have. They are based on Transalvanian Hungarians the Szekelys and their dialect is what we IG call Zyldavian. 

Why we call it Zyldavian is because the native language in Endralon was Syldavian. Its easy to explain. We now do not know why the Endralonians who became the New Endralonians adopt the name Zyldavian as the name of their dialect of Endralonian or name their province Zyldavia if there is no Syldavian language. The name of the country being Sildova or Sildovia that eases it, but its not a language! My objection is that we change Endralon without considering New Endralon and its shared history. 

Its like saying the Angles who settled Britain arent called Angles anymore but Jutes. How did English get its name? Where did England's name come from? Thats the problem I'm addressing here.  

Just to back up my point that Endralonians are also Syldavians btw.

I see Moderation has now approved the CP update

I'm upset that moderation just granted it without at least awnsering my objections based on New Endralonian history. Why make a thread in the first place? Nothing against you Polites, I've enjoyed the discussion with you. 

 So any uses of Syldavia and derived terms in New Endralon or elsewhere would be references to this poetic and even archaic way of calling Endralon itself. The royal house would not have been the origin of the name, they just adopted it for itself. So some colonists calling their variation of the Endralonian language Syldavian (and the derived term Zyldavian) is not that far fetched, they were just keeping alive an alternative mythologized name of their original homeland.

Though I object to the CP approval in principle because I believe there has been too little research into this retcon in relation to New Endralon, I say its best to move forward and see how we can best adapt it into the new reality and your proposal seems to be fitting. Seeing the province of Sodali was the first to be colonised by the Endralonians and renamed Zyldavia. I propose it was originally names Syldavia after the mything more latinised name for the mythical name of Sildova as you have proposed. Then over time as the colonists develop their dialect they indeed with pride call themselves Zyldovians or Zyldavs and call the province Zyldavia.

That would work in my book and keep New Endralonian culture and its develop in line with Endralons history. Instead of ''oh yeah they just diverged and randomly called it Zyldavian''.

[Doc]

Yeah, my point was that whole new languages can form in less than 500 years.

So why not 3000?

[Autokrator]

Yeah, my point was that whole new languages can form in less than 500 years.

So why not 3000?

Yes, my point was never on if there exists a difference between the two, that was never the discussion. Its that it doesnt develop out of nothing, it has to have links to the past. We need an IG reason to call it Zyldavian, it cant just spawn out of thin air. 

But I’m happy that the admins have declared the explaination that the colony was called Syldavia after Sildova and was later through dialectic changed into Zyldavian, canon. So I’m very happy with that. 

It fits with the very proud and conservative nature of the New Endralonian culture in the face of Kizenian opposition.