Renaming & Cultural Protocol update for Trigunia

[Svetlana]

I am proposing both a renaming and update of its cultural protocol.

When it comes to the cultural protocol, there wasn't any radical changes to the ethnic composition other than a new ethnicity, the Nova Beagukiyans (based on Russo-Koreans) was added through by taking percentages from the "Others" category, the Nova Beagukiyans originated from a policy of acceptance toward refugees created by the TRA invasion of Dankuk back when I first played in Trigunia (can't seem to be able to access the old forum to link to the post), the ethnicity kept on rising in numbers and even played a major role in the politics of post collapse Trigunia through the use of their own breakaway state the Institute, the escape of the deposed empress of Beaguk to the isles and the exile of the second heir to the throne of Beaguk helped cement the presence of Nova Beagukiyans within society. Other than that, the ethnic composition of Trigunia remains mostly unchanged.

Concerning the languages, the Kozaki language rose to prominence alongside the other minority languages mainly thanks to the NEC's derodashyanfication process which essentially broke the link between ethnicity and language by enforcing the use of languages such as Kozaki, Dundorfian, Kirivian in accordance with each republic and their main OOC inspiration I had for them. The institutions that ruled the isles also encourage the use of local languages especially in parliamentary proceedings which helped make Kozaki act as the unifying language alongside Rodashyan whilst languages such Dundorfian (in Brakav), Nova Beagukiyan (in Radin), Krivian (Vrosnok), and the indigenous language (Haivan) were used more by the populations of these republics than the general population. Also the reason for Kozaki growing in prominence mainly stems from Kozacchyna being the most population republic and their government repeatedly prioritizing Kozaki over Rodashyan.

For the religious aspect of the protocol, the main change was the addition of the Matriarchal Church of Nadiya a new clerical body that resulted from a schism between the Augustan Church of Trigunia and a groupe of nuns influenced by the Matriarchist wave that had recently hit Kozacchyna, the organization The organization managed to quickly spread their ideas across the breakaway states through a series of educational reforms by the NEC that focused on promoting the valeus of the church, right before the Second Trigunian War The MCN became the fastest growing church in the isles and even overtook the ACT in terms of members. When it comes to the other churches there weren't any major changes except some low drops in percentage.

Edit: The Augustan Church and the Matriarchal Church both recognize each other's existence within society as the leading clerical bodies since the MCN follows a more decentralized leadership unlike the Augustinians' centralized one


Here's the proposed new CulPro

———OVERVIEW———
Trigunia is broadly based on the countries of Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus with a noticable indigenous, German minorities.

———ETHNICITY———

» Trigunian (East Slavic): 73% (-4%)
-- Rodshyan (Russian): 49% (-3%)
-- Kozakian (Ukrainian): 17% (+2%)
-- Krivian (Belarusian): 11% (+1%)
» Indigenous (Indigenous peoples of Alaska): 11% (+1%)
» Hulstrian (Austrian): 10% (+2%)
» Nova Beagukiyan (Russo-Koreans): 4%

» Other: 2% (-3%)

———RELIGION———
» Hosianism (Christianity): 86% (+2%)
***-- Matriarchal Church of Nadiya (Eastern Orthodox with elements of Slavic mythology but with a strictly female leadership): 40% 
-- Augustan Church (Eastern Orthodox with elements of Slavic mythology): 39% (-18%)
-- Confessional Church of Trigunia (Lutheran): 10% (-4%)
-- Aurorian Patriarchal Church (Catholic): 6% (-2%)
-- Other: 5%
» Irreligious: 6% (-2%)
» Ahmadism (Islam): 3%
» Other: 5%

———LANGUAGE———
Rodshyan (Russian) & Kozaki (Ukrainian) are the most widely spoken language in Trigunia and serves as its lingua franca across the isles due to the De-Rodashyanfication policies enacted during the Trigunian Disaster and Kozacchyna becoming the second most populated republic. Because of the De-Rodashyanfication policies, languages typical considered as secondary or minor such as Dundorfian (German), Kirivian (Belarusian), Nova Beagukiyan (Korean with a mix of Russian), and the Indigenous language have become used more frequently in daily lives with people often choosing to speak with their native tongue instead of relying on Rodashyan (Russian)

Though the indigenous peoples use native surnames/family name combined with a Rodashyan (Russian) names.

The local Hulstrians speak their native Dundorfian (German) language and have Dundorfian (German) names.

———INFORMATION/TOOLS———
Google translate: https://translate.google.co.uk/
Naming generators: http://www.behindthename.com/random/
http://fantasynamegenerators.com/#realNames
Tlingit name generator: https://perchance.org/namegen-natam-tlingit 

Here's the old culpro for reference: https://forum.prtcy.com/thread-296-post-...ml#pid4437


The renaming from Trigunia to Nadiya
Originally when I rejoined Trigunia last year, I didn't plan to rename it but as my plans expanded and deepened I thought that the transition from Trigunia into Nadiya would represent a clean move from the traditionally Russia-focused RP players tended to do in Trigunia.

Polites did change the Cultural Protocol for Trigunia and when I asked him if my idea for renaming Trigunian was solid he said it looks good to him.

So the meaning for the name Nadiya and its origins are:

The name "Nadiya" itself has multiple debated origins but most historians agree that the most likely source for the name came from either the Kozaki or Indigenous languages, traces of the name "Nadiya" were seen as early as 1500 BC with the Asakh people using the word "Nadikhna" to describe the Trigunian archipelago, the word itself, according to langue experts, means "Land of the Winter sky" or "Realm of the forever sun" given the fact that most of the land falls onto or past the artic circle. However, other sources claim that the name Nadiya comes from the Kozakis population as records from the 19th century have the nation of "Nadicchyna" referred to when talking about the Deltarian colony, the name itself supposedly means "Land of Hope" due to the colons seeing the artic colony as a hopeful opportunity for them to be free from the shackles of Deltaria because of the great distance separating the colony from the empire. It is agreed upon that the name of Nadiya was the original one used for the Trigunian Isles before its discovery by Artanian and Majatran explorers, but other historic records from the different indigenous ethnic groups such as the Tlagu and Itkilit used a ,variant of Nadiya that is "Nadorkha" which means either Seal Island or the Frozen Haven. Yet given the historical use of the name Nadiya by the indigenous and ethnic minorities, the named Trigunia was the one who prevailed over the others with the arrival of Deltarian missionaries and colonists which cemented the name of Trigunia until its abolition on the 8th of March 5623.

The extensive history of Nadiyan nationalism and how it came to be RP wise are all detailed here: https://forum.prtcy.com/thread-6-post-9449.html#pid9449

[Svetlana]

Also Jorni did express his grievances multiple time back when he was in Trigunia as a secondary about the wiki saying that Kozaki (Ukrainian) and Kirivian (Belarusian) are basically Rodashyan (Russian) with an accent, so I think a proper separation between those three languages in the wiki would be ideal that doesn't infringe on the uniqueness of the Ukrainian and Belarusian languages.

[Doc]

(from Discord)

My opinion as a player:

"Nadiya" has been more or less adopted by those working with Trigunia.

The Matriarchist Church, which I never understood, seems to nonetheless have been extensive RPed anyway. It ultimately doesn't matter if I don't understand it. I'd say Svet has a unified vision for it, and has held to that vision, despite the best efforts of other players, myself included, to argue that it represents a radical departure from the established RP (or realism--I can't think of a strongly patriarchal religious order that tolerated that sort of patriarchy, but just from women.) Whether it did or not, it is now the established RP, and ignoring it would be ignoring more than a year of consistent Rp on Svet's part, and so with each passing day, it becomes more and more canon.

I still personally take issue with the possibility, in terms of realism, of so many widely varying and distinctly identifiable ethnic and language groups existing in one place (edit: without a creole or pidgin developing to allow them to be mutually intelligible) after all these millennia. In the real world cultures blend across the space of a human life (not to mention hundreds of human lifetimes) and language erosion and accretion are a constant and relentless daily process anytime two languages meet and are forced to co-exist. But again: this is not up to me. And as a couple people have pointed out, not every place is like the US, where there are close to a million square miles of territory where almost everyone in them calls themselves American.

My rule is, I just want things to make sense. But I also note that Svet has shown strong commitment to this line for a while now. Consistently referring to the country as Nadiya. Consistently utilizing these groups, consistently playing these religions. And while I do know people have spoken about staying within the the existing CP, I also remember the critique I used to get more often when I would rebel against nonsense ephemeral players were trying to do to Kalistan, that "things change."

If I were a moderator, I would vote to approve the changes to the CP and the name change. As a player, I can only wish Svet luck.

[Mbites]

Just as a disclaimer before I continue: This is not the team opinion, I'm only speaking for myself, we're going to coordinate during and after the public feeback round.

While it's hard for me to measure how much had been posted by Svet in the Trigunia thread before we shifted to the new forum/site, I vaguely recall that it has not been that much (like one or two pages of posts), correct me if I'm wrong. Due to this fact, and almost no option to really check on past content, I'll focus this response on the stuff that has been primarily rp'd on this forum.

When it comes to the cultural protocol, there wasn't any radical changes to the ethnic composition other than a new ethnicity, the Nova Beagukiyans (based on Russo-Koreans) was added through by taking percentages from the "Others" category, the Nova Beagukiyans originated from a policy of acceptance toward refugees created by the TRA invasion of Dankuk back when I first played in Trigunia (can't seem to be able to access the old forum to link to the post), the ethnicity kept on rising in numbers and even played a major role in the politics of post collapse Trigunia through the use of their own breakaway state the Institute, the escape of the deposed empress of Beaguk to the isles and the exile of the second heir to the throne of Beaguk helped cement the presence of Nova Beagukiyans within society. Other than that, the ethnic composition of Trigunia remains mostly unchanged.

 

While this could potentially be true, I can recall that there has been quite a difference in time between when you initially rp'd in Trigunia (which was before I returned in very late 2023), before you went to a multitude of other nations, in that time basically no one aside you has really acknowledged or rp'd with this refugee-policy, so its basically been just implied that the numbers have been growing by posts that happened long after the slow incremental changes necessary for a CulPro update should have been posted, meaning this is an ex-post way of justifying this and this is simply not how this works, thats something i've been taking an issue with because this borders on blatant disregard for the rules and at best its bad form. While I'd generally be fine with this change from a realism/culture POV I think the way this has been ""integrated"" makes it impossible for me to support.

Concerning the languages, the Kozaki language rose to prominence alongside the other minority languages mainly thanks to the NEC's derodashyanfication process which essentially broke the link between ethnicity and language by enforcing the use of languages such as Kozaki, Dundorfian, Kirivian in accordance with each republic and their main OOC inspiration I had for them. The institutions that ruled the isles also encourage the use of local languages especially in parliamentary proceedings which helped make Kozaki act as the unifying language alongside Rodashyan whilst languages such Dundorfian (in Brakav), Nova Beagukiyan (in Radin), Krivian (Vrosnok), and the indigenous language (Haivan) were used more by the populations of these republics than the general population. Also the reason for Kozaki growing in prominence mainly stems from Kozacchyna being the most population republic and their government repeatedly prioritizing Kozaki over Rodashyan.

While I think that the derodadyhsdoodedlydaaad post would be a great start on integrating new languages, were there follow up posts or only implications? If only the latter I dont think the standards of incremental changes has been met, even if we're more generous on the language side. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy to support the distinctiveness of Kozaki and Kirivan cultures as their respective subgroups, that seems like a reasonable and realistic development to have. 

For the religious aspect of the protocol, the main change was the addition of the Matriarchal Church of Nadiya a new clerical body that resulted from a schism between the Augustan Church of Trigunia and a groupe of nuns influenced by the Matriarchist wave that had recently hit Kozacchyna, the organization The organization managed to quickly spread their ideas across the breakaway states through a series of educational reforms by the NEC that focused on promoting the valeus of the church, right before the Second Trigunian War The MCN became the fastest growing church in the isles and even overtook the ACT in terms of members. When it comes to the other churches there weren't any major changes except some low drops in percentage.

This is a major retcon and does - even if offering more RP than the other changes (which is a low bar)- in no way justify its existence and what I stated about procedure and incremental changes can only be stated here too, an even worse case in my opinion. Together with the jarring concerns about realism which I believe do not need to be explained, this is an absolute no-no.

Last point: The Rename.

Well while I do think the explanation offered does have its merit and isnt completely out of the way I dont think there has been done enough to erase 5000 years of history, considering that Trigunia had been played extensively and wasnt by any means a nation with barely any content, I think there should be a lot more to this.

So summa summarum: I oppose this.

[Svetlana]

While it's hard for me to measure how much had been posted by Svet in the Trigunia thread before we shifted to the new forum/site, I vaguely recall that it has not been that much (like one or two pages of posts), correct me if I'm wrong. Due to this fact, and almost no option to really check on past content, I'll focus this response on the stuff that has been primarily rp'd on this forum.

 

For starters, the number of pages i wrote from my RP in Trigunia is over 10 since I remember clearly my user profile data showing me that I wrote nearly 200 posts for Trigunia. Trigunia was the nation I stayed the longest in but back then you could still consider me as a newborn player in PT and I couldn't properly manage my creative flow which often led me to burn out.

While this could potentially be true, I can recall that there has been quite a difference in time between when you initially rp'd in Trigunia (which was before I returned in very late 2023), before you went to a multitude of other nations, in that time basically no one aside you has really acknowledged or rp'd with this refugee-policy, so its basically been just implied that the numbers have been growing by posts that happened long after the slow incremental changes necessary for a CulPro update should have been posted, meaning this is an ex-post way of justifying this and this is simply not how this works, thats something i've been taking an issue with because this borders on blatant disregard for the rules and at best its bad form. While I'd generally be fine with this change from a realism/culture POV I think the way this has been ""integrated"" makes it impossible for me to support.

While the refugee policy wasn't as RPed by others as I did, they still acknowledged the fact that Trigunia had a Beagukiyan minority in its lands from the consequences of the war. Secondly, I contained the Nova Beagukiyans strictly within the regions of northern Radin as to not cause confusion on their locations across the isles, furthermore, the RP about them was inspired from real life examples of the involvement of ethnic minorities during the Russian Revolution. I read A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution, 1891-1924 by Orlando Figes, Russia in Revolution: An Empire in Crisis, 1890 to 1928 by S. A. Smith, and The "Russian" Civil Wars, 1916-1926: Ten Years That Shook the World by J. Smele to replicate the same policies enacted by the temporary but still relevant ethnic state that broke away from the empire during the chaos, logically a minority like the Nova Beagukiyans would take advantage of the Tsardom collapsing in order to form their own states then exploit their advantage to leverage the situation in their favor (the deployment of chemical bombs against the Tsardom and development of a cure to the Blood Tears Virus). Naturally a minority like them would find their place in society in a way that's not obstructing for any of the players (that's OOC)

While I think that the derodadyhsdoodedlydaaad post would be a great start on integrating new languages, were there follow up posts or only implications? If only the latter I dont think the standards of incremental changes has been met, even if we're more generous on the language side. Otherwise I'm perfectly happy to support the distinctiveness of Kozaki and Kirivan cultures as their respective subgroups, that seems like a reasonable and realistic development to have.

If you even bothered to take a look at the RP done by me, jorni, and weim in Trigunia you would know that the De-Rodashyanfication policy has less to great implications on Trigunia as it can be seen in the Constitutional Convention of the first constitution recognizing those languages as official ones alongside Rodashyan, not only that but the impacts of this policy are reflected in the logos that I made for the country which often use all those mentioned tongues and electoral maps also follow this principle. On top of that both Weim and Jorni extensively RPed about their own languages, Krivian and Kozaki respectively, with the later even helping develop Kirivian culture and its language in Vrosnok through the use of civic nationalism and the institution of the Confederation which explicitly encourage such policies. For the change in languages I mainly based it on the books that I read talking about this subject those being:
Politics and the Theory of Language in the USSR 1917–1938: The Birth of Sociological Linguistics edited by Craig Brandist, Language and Power in the Creation of the USSR, 1917–1953 by Michael G. Smith, The Languages of the Soviet Union by Bernard Comrie, Stalin and the Soviet Science Wars by Ethan Pollock, and The Affirmative Action Empire: Nations and Nationalism in the Soviet Union, 1923–1939 by Terry Martin.

This is a major retcon and does - even if offering more RP than the other changes (which is a low bar)- in no way justify its existence and what I stated about procedure and incremental changes can only be stated here too, an even worse case in my opinion. Together with the jarring concerns about realism which I believe do not need to be explained, this is an absolute no-no.

The addition of the MCN isn't even a retcon as the church appeared from a division within the Augustan Church, even then, when I first RPed the appearance of the MCN Polites approached me and helped me correct mistakes I made (I had assumed the Patriarchal Church of Trigunia was still around) and helped me flesh out the schism between the two churches and make it more grounded and realistic. To make my RP of the MCN realistic by real life standards I read books from the 4 major theological phases of eastern Europe and Russia as a whole those being,
Sacred Stories: Religion and Spirituality in Modern Russia edited by Heather Coleman and Mark Steinberg, and A Long Walk to Church: A Contemporary History of Russian Orthodoxy by Nathaniel Davis. So I could figure out how a church like the MCN would work.

Of Religion and Empire: Missions, Conversion, and Tolerance in Tsarist Russia edited by Robert Geraci and Michael Khodarkovsky, Russian Orthodoxy on the Eve of Revolution by Vera Shevzov, The Tsar's Foreign Faiths: Toleration and the Fate of Religious Freedom in Imperial Russia by Paul W. Werth, so that the rise of the MCN in its context (the Trigunian Disaster) would be more logical and grounded with real life examples of the political institutions during the medieval and modern history of Russia.

Church and State in Soviet Russia: Russian Orthodoxy from World War II to the Khrushchev Years by T.A. Chumachenko, A Sacred Space Is Never Empty: A History of Soviet Atheism by Victoria Smolkin, "Godless Communists": Atheism and Soviet Society, 1917–1932 by William B. Husband, in order to understand how the different republics would react to the surgence of the MCN especially communist ones such as Lesnov and to a clerical body defying their strictly atheistic views.

Religion and Politics in Contemporary Russia: Beyond the Binary of Power and Authority by Tobias Köllner, and Russian Orthodoxy Resurgent: Faith and Power in the New Russia by John and Carol Garrard, to see how the MCN would evolve under the Confederation and its within a society like the on in Trigunia that has witnessed major changes in its history.

Last point: The Rename.

Well while I do think the explanation offered does have its merit and isnt completely out of the way I dont think there has been done enough to erase 5000 years of history, considering that Trigunia had been played extensively and wasnt by any means a nation with barely any content, I think there should be a lot more to this.

I neither said nor meant that a renaming of Trigunia into Nadiya would be an erasure of the RP done by others before and after. If we follow this logic, then the renaming of Beiteynu into Amudim and Dankuk into Beaguk equates to the erasure of the RP done in those nations. I explicitly said that the renaming would mean a smooth transition from the historically Russia-focused RP done in the country toward a more broad east Slavic one. I also didn't say that Trigunia was a nation with "barely any content". I am proud to RP in a country as rich as Trigunia in term of the care people have put into it even when we had different visions for it and hope that even more people come this nation to RP alongside me in order to make an even more interesting and rich nation that holds years spent by dedicated players.

[Mbites]

For starters, the number of pages i wrote from my RP in Trigunia is over 10 since I remember clearly my user profile data showing me that I wrote nearly 200 posts for Trigunia. Trigunia was the nation I stayed the longest in but back then you could still consider me as a newborn player in PT and I couldn't properly manage my creative flow which often led me to burn out.

Thanks for clearing that up, I clearly misremembered then. 

While the refugee policy wasn't as RPed by others as I did, they still acknowledged the fact that Trigunia had a Beagukiyan minority in its lands from the consequences of the war. Secondly, I contained the Nova Beagukiyans strictly within the regions of northern Radin as to not cause confusion on their locations across the isles, furthermore, the RP about them was inspired from real life examples of the involvement of ethnic minorities during the Russian Revolution. I read A People's Tragedy: The Russian Revolution, 1891-1924 by Orlando Figes, Russia in Revolution: An Empire in Crisis, 1890 to 1928 by S. A. Smith, and The "Russian" Civil Wars, 1916-1926: Ten Years That Shook the World by J. Smele to replicate the same policies enacted by the temporary but still relevant ethnic state that broke away from the empire during the chaos, logically a minority like the Nova Beagukiyans would take advantage of the Tsardom collapsing in order to form their own states then exploit their advantage to leverage the situation in their favor (the deployment of chemical bombs against the Tsardom and development of a cure to the Blood Tears Virus). Naturally a minority like them would find their place in society in a way that's not obstructing for any of the players (that's OOC)

If that is the case, this alleviates most of my concerns regarding the formal introduction (elevation from "other") in regards to the Nova Beagukiyans, I'm fine with this change then even If I still have some minor reservations on how this all went down from a procedural POV.

If you even bothered to take a look at the RP done by me, jorni, and weim in Trigunia you would know that the De-Rodashyanfication policy has less to great implications on Trigunia as it can be seen in the Constitutional Convention of the first constitution recognizing those languages as official ones alongside Rodashyan, not only that but the impacts of this policy are reflected in the logos that I made for the country which often use all those mentioned tongues and electoral maps also follow this principle. On top of that both Weim and Jorni extensively RPed about their own languages, Krivian and Kozaki respectively, with the later even helping develop Kirivian culture and its language in Vrosnok through the use of civic nationalism and the institution of the Confederation which explicitly encourage such policies. [...]

Well, I didnt bother and that is exactly why I asked if there were any follow up posts; I also said that I think that this is a good change, I maintain that this specific part of the proposal has my support.

The addition of the MCN isn't even a retcon as the church appeared from a division within the Augustan Church, even then, when I first RPed the appearance of the MCN Polites approached me and helped me correct mistakes I made (I had assumed the Patriarchal Church of Trigunia was still around) and helped me flesh out the schism between the two churches and make it more grounded and realistic.

Maybe retcon was the wrong word to use, but it is a very major change that I dont see reflected in RP.  While its commendable that you've dabbled in literature in regards to grounding your RP, or for development of your interests, from where I am sitting the rise of the MCN still seems incredibly ridiculous. 

I neither said nor meant that a renaming of Trigunia into Nadiya would be an erasure of the RP done by others before and after. If we follow this logic, then the renaming of Beiteynu into Amudim and Dankuk into Beaguk equates to the erasure of the RP done in those nations. I explicitly said that the renaming would mean a smooth transition from the historically Russia-focused RP done in the country toward a more broad east Slavic one. I also didn't say that Trigunia was a nation with "barely any content". I am proud to RP in a country as rich as Trigunia in term of the care people have put into it even when we had different visions for it and hope that even more people come this nation to RP alongside me in order to make an even more interesting and rich nation that holds years spent by dedicated players.

Sorry for wording this badly. "Erasure" clearly isnt the right word, my line of thought was that this mass of land had been called "Trigunia" for millenia and this short period of it being called "Nadiya" (by some) doesnt really justify the change for me yet. 

To summarize after your detailed answer (thank you for that), I am supporting the changes in regards to introducing the Koreans as a minority formally, distincting Krivians and Kozakians from Rodshyans. I dont think I can really be sold on the rename or the MCN though.

[Svetlana]

Maybe retcon was the wrong word to use, but it is a very major change that I dont see reflected in RP.  While its commendable that you've dabbled in literature in regards to grounding your RP, or for development of your interests, from where I am sitting the rise of the MCN still seems incredibly ridiculous.

By real life standards, the MCN isn't that ridiculous as there has been far more radical clerical movements in Russia during its modern. Furthermore, the uniqueness of Trigunia's polytheistic take on Hosnianism allows for more reasons that led to the appearance of the MCN. However, I do share the idea that the MCN looks ridiculous at first but not acknowledging its existence within the protocol would be foolish. Which means that, I am willing to lower the percentage of the MCN in the proposed culpro from 40% down to at best 25% at worst 20% while the ACN gains the difference so that both the MCN and ACN act as important clerical institutions yet the Augustinians remain the dominant church.

Sorry for wording this badly. "Erasure" clearly isnt the right word, my line of thought was that this mass of land had been called "Trigunia" for millenia and this short period of it being called "Nadiya" (by some) doesnt really justify the change for me yet.

Personally I think that renaming Trigunia into Nadiya will greatly help players, especially new ones, in understanding the nation. Already, the persons that interact with Trigunia refer to it as Nadiya (even tho I clearly stated multiple times that they're allowed to call it Trigunia or Nadiya interchangeably). Whilst I wouldn't have put such a serious name change request if I didn't intend to stay in this nation for the foreseeable (trying to achieve Doc level of dedications :3), classic PT didn't allow for nations to change names, in legacy players did gain this liberty so the names are something set in stones anymore (Dankuk becoming Beaguk and Beiteynu into Amudim). On top of that I did ask Polites about his thoughts about my renaming process (mainly out of respect for him being the last person that brought major changes to Trigunia) and he did say that it looked good to him. Once again, I am open to comprise over the rename but ideally it should be accepted as it lifts a massive hurdle for players.

[Doc]

By real life standards, the MCN isn't that ridiculous as there has been far more radical clerical movements in Russia during its modern. Furthermore, the uniqueness of Trigunia's polytheistic take on Hosnianism allows for more reasons that led to the appearance of the MCN. However, I do share the idea that the MCN looks ridiculous at first but not acknowledging its existence within the protocol would be foolish. Which means that, I am willing to lower the percentage of the MCN in the proposed culpro from 40% down to at best 25% at worst 20% while the ACN gains the difference so that both the MCN and ACN act as important clerical institutions yet the Augustinians remain the dominant church.

Yes, but then how do you explain the extensive RP you've done where men became basically non-citizens, or second class citizens, or however you want to describe it, for an extended period of time, with zero protests or pushback at all from the men? Unless I missed the extensive protests of people who used to have all the power suddenly having it completely stripped away from them because of the rise of a now small minority sect of the dominant religion?

[Svetlana]

Yes, but then how do you explain the extensive RP you've done where men became basically non-citizens, or second class citizens, or however you want to describe it, for an extended period of time, with zero protests or pushback at all from the men?  Unless I missed the extensive protests of people who used to have all the power suddenly having it completely stripped away from them because of the rise of a now small minority sect of the dominant religion?

What? Men were never RPed as being second class citizens during the warlord era. The two republics that openly barred men from holding offices higher than mayor were Vrosnok and Kozacchyna which had recently experienced failed coup attempts from Tsarist loyalist forces and both governments used the excuse of failed military coups to enact the bans. Even then men still enjoyed the same rights as their female partners across all the different breakaway states and eventually the 5 democratic republics, Radin, Lesnov, and Brakav were even notable for enforcing gender equality while Vrosnok and Kozacchyna slightly eased their bans by allowing men to become member of their parliaments and governments. The RP that I have done in Nadiya never made men second class citizens because that's simply foolish and outlandish from a political, economical, and societal point of view. Nadiya is a Matriarchist society, that's a fact, but it's the equivalent of our modern patriarchal societies but just flip the positions around. So in no way shape or form were men relegated to non-citizens or second class ones. Weim wrote an excellent editorial piece about the state of gender equality in Nadiya that's realistic and sensible and not outlandish claims that we're a gender apartheid or stuff like that.

[Doc]

What? Men were never RPed as being second class citizens during the warlord era. The two republics that openly barred men from holding offices higher than mayor were Vrosnok and Kozacchyna which had recently experienced failed coup attempts from Tsarist loyalist forces and both governments used the excuse of failed military coups to enact the bans. Even then men still enjoyed the same rights as their female partners across all the different breakaway states and eventually the 5 democratic republics, Radin, Lesnov, and Brakav were even notable for enforcing gender equality while Vrosnok and Kozacchyna slightly eased their bans by allowing men to become member of their parliaments and governments. The RP that I have done in Nadiya never made men second class citizens because that's simply foolish and outlandish from a political, economical, and societal point of view. Nadiya is a Matriarchist society, that's a fact, but it's the equivalent of our modern patriarchal societies but just flip the positions around. So in no way shape or form were men relegated to non-citizens or second class ones. Weim wrote an excellent editorial piece about the state of gender equality in Nadiya that's realistic and sensible and not outlandish claims that we're a gender apartheid or stuff like that.

I distinctly recall you RPing that men didn't have rights in several sectors of society, including to vote or hold office or things like this. And I distinctly remember you tying it to the rise of the matriarchist church, which didn't make any sense at the time, and it also never made sense that men wouldn't say anything about it. And you also told me that majorities supported matriarchism in elections.

I don't question that Nadiya is a matriarchist society like modern societies are patriarchal. I am questioning that it switched to matriarchalism from what I assume was "not matriarchalism" (and I know it was "not matriarchalism" because I remember Trigunia before you ever got there to introduce Matriarchalism out of wholecloth), and nobody protested it, because you put it on support for the matriarchalist church. That's what I am questioning.