5634 Legion/Kalistan Settlement Talks in Skyhold Castle, Constantine, Lagard

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This is the Official IC/RP thread of the talks for Settlement of Outstanding Conflicts between Kundrati Legion and the Empire of Ananto and Kalistan held in the Cloud Room at Skyhold Castle in Lagard Hutori.

All attenders are welcomed.  @Vesica is moderator/mediator

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Lady Anya Waltrip, Her Imperial Majesty's Foreign Minister, Empire of Ananto and Kalistan

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We want to thank our host, the Kingdom of Hutori and Mde Natasha Wright for representing her Nation's Government here.

I would also like to announce that Her Imperial Majesty, Empress Mary I Ananto has asked me to serve as the Empire's Chief Negotiator, though she will be in attendance.  We ask that all attenders to this conference respect the Imperial Protocol, as is practical with regard to Her Imperial Majesty, and understand that she desires to remain an observer only while here.  Any question you have for her may be directed to me, and she has authorized me to speak for her.  If I do not know her mind on any subject, I shall ask for the opportunity to confer with her, but I ask you to speak to me as if you are speaking to her, and allow her to remain simply as an observer.

In addition, Her Imperial Majesty has authorized me to announce that the Embargo against the Kundrati Mainland, and any nation opting to trade with it is hereby suspended for the duration of these talks.  It is Her Imperial Majesty's aim to remove it entirely, and pending progress on Her Imperial Majesty's earlier preconditions, we hope to do it sooner rather than later.  We would like instead to focus more on any other outstanding difficulties, conflicts or sources of tension, so that we may resolve them in a way that preserves both sides' dignity, and allows Kalistan to exit Artanian affairs permanently.

Thank you for meeting with us here in this auspicious palace.  I yield.

[Dredd]

Lazar Saburov, Supreme Leader of the Kundrati Legionary State & Party

Lazar standing from his armchair at the table and flanked by his two nearly 7 foot tall bodyguards cleared his throat and began speaking,

"We are happy to finally be at the 3 decades awaited negotiating table, I understand we both share a tumultuous history but as with all things I believe it is time to bury the hatchet and move forward to a peaceful resolution. The Legionary state has made good on its promises for this agreement and we are approaching Etxea as we speak to begin peace talks of reunification. There are however some concerns before we complete this deal, obviously as I'm sure you need not be told, our programmes for development of intercontinental rocketry and chemical research cost many billions of Kuno and nearly 30 years of development. In order for this to be justified at both home and for the people, we wish to secure a series of trade deals between our states, to which end can be negotiated, this would mainly include foodstuffs and basic goods. We were also told such temporary measures such as humanitarian aid could be arranged which I am interested to hear more about. We may address issues as they come" 

Lazar sat down and gestured to the ambassador to speak as he lit a cigarette. 

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Lady Anya Waltrip, Her Imperial Majesty's Foreign Minister, Empire of Ananto and Kalistan

Mr. Lazar,

Her Imperial Majesty Empress Mary I Ananto acknowledges the progress your Government is making in regard to offering a peace overture to your neighbor, the Government she happens to recognize in Etxea. She also appreciates your stated policy of disarmament and divestment of your weapons of mass destruction. She eagerly awaits the full report of an international and independent monitoring group on the status of that divestment. And she also looks forward to the full report from your administration with regard to the extent of your internal policies which have been hinted at with regard to prison statistics, to include those who have died while in custody, forced prison labor, and the methods to which your Administration employed in utilizing those prisoners in medical experimentation, of which she has heard rumors that are considered credible in Kalistan but have not been substantiated by admission by yourself or your administration. She is optimistic that you will engage in this sort of disclosure as an effort perhaps to reform, or at least bring some of these policies into the sunlight for scrutiny.

All told, Her Imperial Majesty is optimistic that your effort is in good faith and she looks forward to watching your progress. She is eager to make the suspension of the trade embargo permanent and lift all sanctions against the Kundrati Legion so we may live at peace in perpetuity.

With regard to recuperating losses, Her Imperial Majesty expresses a bit of confusion. The Empire of Ananto and Kalistan would have preferred that the Kundrati Legion not put a single ruble into building those weapons. Do you, Mr. Lazar, now propose that Kalistan provide economic benefits to your Administration to recuperate the losses of resources that you sunk into the testing and manufacture of those horrific weapons, ones which have been used in our cities and killed our people, and to the degree that we don't even know the full extent of your production and possession of? Perhaps you will either restate your request, or tie a request for a trade deal to something else, because Ananto is not sure that she could ever grant monetary compensation for the destruction of items that your Administration should never have pursued in the first place, and which have been used to kill tens of thousands, including those in our own Cities.

With regard to humanitarian aid, Her Imperial Majesty has expressed a desire to begin shipment of humanitarian aid to the people of the Mainland portions of Kundrati. This would include medicine, food, and other necessaries for human sustainment, as needed. We are concerned about famine and malnutrition of the people of Kundrati, and we would like to help them out. Perhaps Mr. Lazar, you would be willing to suggest a neutral third party who would be willing to administer this aid distribution to your people, who she can trust won't just hand it to the Legion to disburse to their favorites, and who you can trust won't be there simply to spy on behalf of the Empire. She would be happy to work through whomever you trust to fulfill these two conditions and begin shipments of humanitarian aid immediately to help stabilize your country to allow you to continue and deepen your reforms toward peace.

The Empire of Ananto and Kalistan is desirous to end the long standing hostility between our two countries. Her Imperial Majesty notes that she appreciates your willingness to speak with me, and hopes to continue our conversation to iron out these and any other issues that may stand in the way of peace.

[Dredd]

Lazar Saburov, Supreme Leader of the Kundrati Legionary State & Party

Lazar frowned as he inhaled the cigarette, "I must say Anya I am quite offended by such scandalous accusations, perhaps if you elaborate upon these hunches your so called media over in Kalistan are accusing us of we can clarify. It may be hard to imagine in such a nation as your own that prefers coddling criminals, but we have a zero tolerance policy on a wide range of them, its only natural that rapists, murderers, traitors, child abusers, and any number of horrible people be locked away for a long time if not life and that time be spent other than consuming our taxpayers money languishing in a cell, they are put to good use rebuilding the same nation they undermined for the betterment of the people they wronged. These scum would be given the death penalty in any case in other nations, so instead of the gallows or the firing squad they work, sometimes they drop, sometimes they persevere. We have a saying in the Legionary labor camps, "Work them all evenly, god will know his own" ." Lazar chuckled dryly 

"In regards to this so called, Human Experimentation was it? Perhaps you have some idea of some, villainous diabolical laboratories one might see in a horror film filled with people hooked up with IV's and operated on while alive, hah! Truly many of these people were destined for death anyways, we have in some cases where someone is terminally ill or sentenced for immediate death relocated them to facilities in Lirnak where they might give their life for something worthwhile, we have made great strides in understanding the lethality and exposure to Sladite & Nerve agents we procure as well as advancing our knowledge of the medicinal. Our doctors and scientists no longer have to hope for the best in using medicine and treatments once used on apes or pigs and can instead use the real thing, and if the idea of some satanic pedophile being used against his will offends you, I would ask you to consider if he had any such inclinations for his victims!

Now, in regards to our WMDS, you may recall we did not fire a thing at you. Sadly our technology has yet to reach a stage where low yield rockets have range anywhere near your mainland, I believe it was Likatonia who did so perfidiously strike your civilians with weapons we gave them for military use, and for that I give my regrets and condolences to the victims, however the Likatonian regime is gone and their president in prison if memory serves. We can give financial estimates on expenses for the programs themselves, but we aren't asking for straight up money, rather deals mutually beneficial that we equal the cost in years to come from honest trade, you may find products in Kundrati previously unknown yet welcome to the Kalistani market despite your emphasis on self sufficiency or at the very least find some brains at home willing to invest in our opportune nation, having such a closed market for so long here will certainly be a boon to first time investors. Now humanitarian aid...has such a, needy feel to it no? I don't see why we cannot be entrusted to distribute the goods ourselves simply sent to us, we can package them and distribute them in our own warehouses of which our ration and distribution centers are well prepared to do, whos to say some goods aren't plundered or go missing if gone through a third party, and to allow foreign nations of which we do not trust to send their own people here and construct camps to give out goods? Simply too much of a security risk, we face espionage from probably a dozen different countries eager to smuggle in spies and saboteurs. You have trusted us thus far and we've made good on our word, so I fail to see why you cannot do it here once more! 

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Lady Anya Waltrip, Her Imperial Majesty's Foreign Minister, Empire of Ananto and Kalistan

Lady Anya Waltrip spoke into her microphone:

It has been reported, in Kundrati newspapers themselves, that the Legion has been sending their convicts, and I do not use the word "criminal" here for good reason, but those who have been summarily convicted of crimes only, yes, including serious crimes, but also petty offenses which elsewhere are sanctioned with a ticket, to prison camps where they are forced to work at hard labor.  It is well reported that some nations, including Likatonia and more recently Davostag, have sought to trade with the Legion due to their "cheap labor costs", and it is widely known that the Legion uses their convict population as slaves.  It is not for us to confirm these allegations, Mr. Lazar.  It is the Legion's Part to confirm them and to be forthcoming and transparent about its use of those convicts in that fashion.  Her Imperial Majesty is not interested in why your government sees fit to enslave a not insignificant portion of your population and force them to work at hard labor.  That is not at all important to Her Imperial Majesty.  What is important is that you admit that you do it, you do it as a matter of state practice, and that many of the people sent to your labor camps die while in state custody due to the conditions that your Government keeps them in and the arduousness of the labor that you subject them to.

This is part of the accountability that your Administration has so far escaped in any real sense.  Admission of the practices of your government demonstrates good faith and establishes a credibility for honesty and transparency.  Spinning your own Administration's practices to avoid being held accountable, or providing some justification as an attempt to mitigate the fact of state sponsored slavery or institutionalized death by work does the opposite of that.  And your Administration has been adept at the later for more than three decades, which is a source of much of the conflict between our two peoples.  Her Imperial Majesty wants to meet you half way.  Being honest on your part is the easiest of the three conditions Her Imperial Majesty has expressed.  You gain nothing by continuing to justify barbarity toward your citizenry.

As for the Weapons of Mass Destruction, there is no situation where the Empire of Ananto and Kalistan will compensate the Kundrati Legion for research, development and construction of weapons of mass destruction.  Her Imperial Majesty would rather see them outlawed and dismantled all together from every state who claims to possess them.  It was immoral to build them, and it was doubly immoral to divert resources that could have been used to feed your population into their development. 

As for the honest trade you speak of Mr. Lazar, Her Imperial Majesty is confident that this can happen over time, if we can get past these sticking points.  But as for the importation of Kundrati items into the markets of Kalistan, Her Imperial Majesty requires me to assure you that nothing tied to slave labor will ever see a moment on the shelves in any Kalistani market, regardless of the cheap prices that so called 'Low Labor costs' can provide.  We have not sunk so low as to allow the bottom line to be the sole determiner of our economic decision making.  As we don't purchase garment from maquiladoras either, but insist that the workers in those corporations who supply us items are paid fair wages, have job protections, and good working conditions, and would rather pay higher prices than profit from misery.

I assure you, Mr. Lazar, there are suppliers for every single one of the items that Kundrati has to offer, which also do not stink of slavery.  That is a discussion for a different day. 

So, Her Imperial Majesty would prefer to discuss how we may begin supplying your people with necessary humanitarian aid.  Her Imperial Majesty may be young, but she is her Father's daughter, and more importantly, she is Empress Carolina's Grand Daughter.  She does not blindly trust the word of your Administration.  On any point.  We have no history to serve as a basis for that trust.  Instead, put frankly, she believes that you, Mr. Lazar, will direct the aid to feed and treat your Legionary faithful first, and then if there is anything left over, you may use it to cajole compliance from those you deem less worthy of that aid. 

She wishes to give the aid to ameliorate the suffering of as many as possible, without political loyalty being the condition for assistance.  And the only way she can trust this will happen is if the aid is administered through a neutral third Party, which cannot be unduly influenced by your Party, but will develop criteria and will be accountable for its general distribution.

There are no other conditions for the aid.  Her Imperial Majesty believes this a more than fair proposal.  And she awaits your response.

[Dredd]

Lazar Saburov, Supreme Leader of the Kundrati Legionary State & Party

Lazar leaned forward to the microphone

"Perhaps it may have slipped your mind, but there is a markedly wide difference between slavery and penal labor. Slaves are enslaved for the duration of their lives without reason or justification, there is not a single person in any of our camps that is not interned for violation of a legal precedent nor are they there for their entire life unless on a life sentence. Given the nature of working in dangerous occupations, large factories with heavy machinery, mines and construction work, deaths are sadly inevitable. Secondly we have never denied having said camps, we even had inspectors come from abroad who confirmed their existence. I will say though that given the economic difficulties of the last twenty years some standards may have dropped in regards to food allocation and safety measures, I'm sure you would prioritize your own law abiding citizens needs before that of an inmate no? Should it please you we will release documents with recorded deaths and the inmate populations."

"We do not expect compensation, rather as a gesture of good faith from your side, pre agreed deals which go into effect once these talks are settled. Perhaps, importing food and goods and exporting subsidized uranium or ores. There are many products we have that are not harvested from penal labor, though I wonder why it truly matters unless you have some bias against the incarcerated undergoing reform perhaps. I would like to hear more of how exactly you intend for humanitarian aid to be delivered and distributed, trust and believe our loyal party members are already well taken care of and basic necessities are not needed for them but rather the impoverished whom this primarily will go to. If you truly wish independent centers we would consider an option such as perhaps, Davostag who already has built mining assets and proven their neutrality, I would second Rutania or potentially Kirlawa who has recently seemed open to extended diplomacy and should our talks succeed an additional trade partner."

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Lady Anya Waltrip, Her Imperial Majesty's Foreign Minister, Empire of Ananto and Kalistan

Mr. Lazar,

Her Imperial Majesty does not equivocated between chattel slavery and indentured servitude or peonage, so why would she see a difference between chattel slavery and involuntary labor in penance for a crime?  Her Imperial Majesty is not uneducated, if this is what you meant to suggest:  She knows that slavery is slavery, whatever situation landed one in that condition.

For my own part, I am left to wonder if there is a difference in value placed on the lives of Her Imperial Majesty's subjects, and those who are forced to live under the regime of the Legion, and who are interned in a death camp, excuse me, a Prison facility if they make any attempt to escape.  Because if I am not mistaken, attempts to liberate one's self from Kundrati Mainland is also a "crime" which warrants a sentence of, is it, 10 years of forced, involuntary labor? as a penalty.

We are interested in admission of all such violations of what the world commonly refers to as basic human rights committed by your Administration.

As for pre-arranged deals:  We have no need for uranium or ores.  We do not use nuclear power for anything, and we have steady and long term suppliers for all industrial ores and metals we use in our production, enough to satisfy our market and our production schedules.  The lifting of the embargo is more a decision to end our protests against others for trading with you, so perhaps you will be able to more easily interest them in purchasing your materials.  We will be happy to export food and basic goods to Kundrati above and beyond whatever we conclude for our humanitarian assistance, to be purchased by hard international easily convertible currency, or specie, either one.

As for humanitarian aid, we propose the following:  We would be willing to commit ₭1 billion initially in direct food and medical assistance to the humanitarian effort.  This aid would come in the form of direct supplies from Kalistan, mostly in medicine and then credits for whoever administers the program to purchase surplus food on the international market for the program.  It would be far more efficient than attempting to ship whole cargo containers of food from Seleya to Kundrati Mainland, and draw on Kalistan's already limited surplus.  Once the relief channel is set up, it would be easy to simply add more money to the fund to procure more items.  As ODEN already produces surplus pharmaceuticals, including pain medicines, anti-biotics, anti parasitic and anti-inflamatory medicines, provision of those would be easy to account for.

The aid centers would be open to all and would provide aid for all regardless of party or political affiliation, and efforts should be made to get into the countryside where people are living to provide assistance.  Ultimately, Her Imperial Majesty would like to see longer term, sustainability become a focus, and this includes rebuilding much of the infrastructure which has been damaged and/or neglected, rehabilitating farm lands, and providing assistance to begin restoring the manufacturing base to allow Kundrati Nationals the ability to produce their own items without the support of the international community. 

Her Imperial Majesty trusts that if you can find a partner who will administer this aid fairly to your nation, we can work out terms by which they may also collect a small fee for the administration costs of the program, so Kalistan does not have to do it.  And we are willing to work with Davostag, Kirlawa, or Rutania if they indicate a commitment to fair and even administration of this aid to all, equally, without regard or prejudice for Party or Political affiliation, including to those you specifically would prefer no aid go to whatsoever.  Her Imperial Majesty believes that means testing is a recipe for failure, and would prefer the aid program be universal so that all may benefit.

[Dredd]

Lazar Saburov, Supreme Leader of the Kundrati Legionary State & Party

"Perhaps once the issue of espionage is resolved transit inside and out of Kundrati will be loosened, but once this deals signed I'll send the documents to you personally to do with as you wish. I also see no issue with the initial aid payment for foodstuffs and pharmaceuticals, however we feel 1 billion is too small in long term. If we could extend this as an annual renew for a period of 5 years, we can shake on it here and now, we'll approach Davostag and Kirlawa and see if either of them are open to the idea of managing said facilities for distribution and we will allow them freedom to report all activity independently to you without prior review."

Lazar watched expectingly awaiting an answer

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Lady Anya Waltrip, Her Imperial Majesty's Foreign Minister, Empire of Ananto and Kalistan

Mr. Lazar, as we mentioned, the 1 Bn figure is the opening amount to get it started.  We would be happy to continue to contribute to that fund for as long as you would need to get through the situation to a more sustainable place, but sustainability must be the goal.  Her Imperial Majesty is emphatic that she, and I am sure you as well, does not wish to establish a regime whereby the Kundrati Mainland is in any way dependent or beholden to the Empire of Ananto or Kalistan for anything.  She does not intend to be a patron of your Administration, only a partner in the health and well being of your people.

Her Imperial Majesty will stand by for your Administration to bring another partner on board for the administration of this program, and then we will make our own arrangements to open the valve for aid.

Other further arrangements will evolve organically assuming this becomes our trajectory.  For now, let us continue along the path we are treading, tentatively for now, more confidently as we go forward.  Again, we will look for your progress in full disclosure of all the programs we mentioned at the top of this discussion, work on dismantling your WMD program, and work on settlement with your neighbor in Etxea.  We will keep the suspension of all sanctions in place, and look forward to the day when we can call those sanctions "ended" as we did with your former partners in Likatonia.

Her Imperial Majesty wishes for me to express a desire to open a permanent interest section, via third party, in some neutral embassy.  Kalistan doesn't maintain a lot of embassies there, but it should not require some cloak and dagger operation for us to communicate.  Her Imperial Majesty cannot, you understand offer normal diplomatic relationships with your Administration, for obvious reasons.  Perhaps some day following a settlement with Etxea, but not at the moment.  But if you would like to send a formal proposal to Her Imperial Majesty's Government, an interest section may be the way to go.  If you have any thoughts on this matter, she would be open to hearing them."