Discord RP

[GreekIdiot]

@hyr,

like we both said, it's a transcript on the forums, not the actual thing that happened. So it's not a piece of content that other players, not the ones who were involved in the Discord RP, will have an idea what it is about unless they had followed the Discord RP closely.

There was IRC, Facebook was even a thing back then. The problem is not about old habits, we've been innovating the shit out of this game these last few months. The problem with Discord is that it is a detached interface and a detached database reliant on a third-party service.

And the only way to sufficiently access it is to code an entire Discord app. But why would we do that? If we're playing the game on an app called Discord, why bother playing the game on a different, independent app called prtcy.com?

I can totally make an IRC-type thing on the app called prtcy.com - you guys ready to pay-to-play so I can cover the extensive costs of that?

[hyraemous]

@hyr,

like we both said, it's a transcript on the forums, not the actual thing that happened. So it's not a piece of content that other players, not the ones who were involved in the Discord RP, will have an idea what it is about unless they had followed the Discord RP closely.

There was IRC, Facebook was even a thing back then. The problem is not about old habits, we've been innovating the shit out of this game these last few months. The problem with Discord is that it is a detached interface and a detached database reliant on a third-party service.

And the only way to sufficiently access it is to code an entire Discord app. But why would we do that? If we're playing the game on an app called Discord, why bother playing the game on a different, independent app called prtcy.com?

I can totally make an IRC-type thing on the app called prtcy.com - you guys ready to pay-to-play so I can cover the extensive costs of that?

If the meeting discussed events that can be accessed on the forums, would it matter if it happened on Discord if it is then posted on the forums? You can easily access it on Discord if you want, or you can easily access it on the forum if you want, and they're talking about events on the forum, not the Discord. If you want, we can also talk about requiring context to be put before the transcript, which can include links to relevant forum posts. 

If we're talking about a meeting that is discussing future events, then sure, I can see your point. Something can happen on Discord but then not follow up on the forums. We all have a life. Things happen. It's fair that some things slip through the cracks. 

But otherwise, I don't see what you're talking about there. As I said before, if you don't put the resulting transcript on the forums, then it shouldn't be considered for further roleplay opportunities. 

And to be fair, we already have offloaded OOC mainly to Discord. There's barely anything here for OOC-related conversation anyway. There's a very good reason for that, and OOC conversations are inherently more chaotic in themselves. You and I both know that. You and I both know why that is. And I doubt that an IC discussion will devolve like that if we make that crystal clear and enforce it. I also doubt that we will abandon the game side of things if we have one droplet of IC in the Discord.

And no, with all due respect, I don't think that letting some IC action happen on Discord will result in every IC action being allowed eventually. If this works, it works. If this doesn't, it doesn't.

[GreekIdiot]

@hyr,

Fair points, honestly. Again, I have no skin in the gameplay, it's ultimately up to personal playstyles*. I'm a forum guy through and through with very slight coordination on Discord, which I never use for IC. I did not follow the RP simulations on Discord nor will I read them on the forums, knowing that the scenario was already played elsewhere and it's now just a transcript. Again, this is a personal preference.

*By personal playstyles I mean that if you want to prep your RP on a spreadsheet and then paste it on the forums, that's totally fine.

[Doc]

I have withdrawn the proposal due to the fact that 1) it appears to have almost no support, and 2) most of the harshest critiques of what I wrote were actually critiques of what people speculated my motivations were.  Words like “bad faith”, “perfidious” and “my way or the highway” were used to describe was was initially a suggestion that the rules be changed to allow for more flexibility and timeliness in role play. I asked for pros and cons of that idea to help make the case one way or another (though I clearly preferred one way) and then stated a fact: that even without the change of rules, it could already happen on other discord servers. 

The most straight forward answer to my request for evaluation came from Kubrick who simply said that we should keep RP off discord.  That’s fine- that feedback was direct and to the point I was asking about, and said nothing of what Kubrick thought of me as a player.  The same with Dredd’s response.  There wasn’t a lot of discussion about the pros and cons, which I intended to help make a strong case for or against the proposal, rather than being some open ended philosophical discussion, but they both gave their opinion on the question without making it personal.

Meanwhile, others decided to write much longer posts that went straight at me and focused specifically on my motivations, both behind this proposal, and my comments about it on discord.  I don’t think those were fair, I don’t think those responses adequately reflected my initial post, and it sort of feels like I was piled on.  My proposal wasn’t in bad faith at all. I was proposing the rules be changed. I was saying that even if it wasn’t changed, and the official discord remained specifically OOC, this genie was out of the bottle now: because several of us realized in practice how useful this tool was recently. I’m not even the first person to have engaged in this sort of off-forum RP, I’m merely the idiot who put my name on a proposal to change a rule about it.  

Nor am I the only one who used this apparently taboo tool either.  Nor was what I wrote anything other than a statement of fact:  I wasn’t saying I’ll just go around the rules, I was saying I COULD easily do that.  But you all assumed the worst and did it in public.  You basically made me out to be an extortionist instead of a person who proposed a rule change that others have also used, successfully, and thought that the change could be harmless and improve one tiny fucking aspect of this game without making a huge god damn bunch of work for others. You just assumed the worst.  Instead of asking me for any clarification.

So I’ve withdrawn the proposal.

[Louis]

, I’m merely the idiot who put my name on a proposal to change a rule about it.

My message was not meant to be a personal attack on your motivations, Doc. I'm sorry you interpreted it that way, but I'm not going to go out of my way just to make a personal attack on someone publicly.

My message was clear with why I thought it was a bad idea. I even listed out a reason of pros and cons and why. 

Pros: 
- Ease of Access
- Fun(?)
Cons:
- Accessing previous RPs on Discord
- Logistics (who's uploading to forums and not?)
- Organization of RP on discord
- Recognition of RP (who is going to recognize discord RP?)
- External Discord Server Issues
- Unaligned Community Norms and Previous attempts at similar proposal

I just don't think it's a good idea at all and I stated my reasons why in my original post. I even stated that I would be willing to consider this idea if the community came up with an organized, structured way to do it in the discord. Did you even look at that?

Do I think there's a very unique way to get discord involved in RP? Sure, but it is going to be a very regulated and logistically strenuous rule that, quite frankly, we do not have the oversight to make sure it rolls out perfectly. If there is a heavily organized and sophisticated way to make this work, I would love to see it. But for now, the cons severely outweigh the pros in my opinion, and I am not going to support any sort of measure unless there is a guarantee that it will truly improve the game for everyone not just for those who cant handle using a forum.

Zanz also added a very clear and consider reason why he didn't support. Was that looked at? 

I personally prefer if ALL IC is kept off Discord, simply because I think we already struggle as a community to distinguish IC actions from OOC actions and Discord is very susceptible to that problem, specifically.

Now, talking about the language I used when describing working around the rules. I did not explicitly say: "I think Doc is breaking the rules, I think Doc is very wrong for even wanting to do this, Doc is the most evil person ever yadda yadda".

What I think is perfidious is not your motivations or character, but the idea that people could work around the rules. It's more of a defence of the rules and norms we have rather than an attack on you. I know people have issues with the rules, but I think it's the one thing that keeps us in check. It's my opinion after all. I don't think it's a good idea to bend the rules at all. I'm not saying that's what you were suggesting, but I don't think the possibility of working around the rules would necessarily make a positive improvement on the game, just my thought. 

I would suggest you keep adding your thoughts and opinions on this thread. Yes, it like it's a very divisive issue, but it doesn't help when you automatically consider them an attack on your character. It surely wasn't my intention and I don't think it was the intentions of others either.

[Doc]

People RP Off the forums all the time. I don’t disagree with anything you said with regard to your or zanz’s reasoning for not supporting a change. I also don’t find it deceitful or treacherous to suggest that 1) the forum is very unwieldy for what is supposed to be a conversation, and 2) that people do work around that limitation now and sticking with the roadblock will simply encourage others to continue to do it. It’s also not bad faith to point that out.  It’s also not extortion.  I am merely stating a fact that people do it and will continue to do it informally, and I happen to believe that the best way to manage it is to formalize what people are doing informally already.

That point of view doesn’t warrant the divisive response several people gave it.  I get it:  the rule isn’t going to change. There doesn’t seem to be support for it in the community, and there are lots of good reasons to keep it in place. That’s totally different than the suggestion that it should change and people are going to continue to find easier ways to communicate is some how deceietful or in bad faith or “my way or the highway.”